jauvana

Yes, thank you Caitanya das, i read your post on y...

2009-04-23T02:05:00.000-05:00

Yes, thank you Caitanya das, i read your post on your blog. You have seen thru the curtain of maya and discovered that the gurus and gbc are actually the Wizard of Oz. Well done.
You should know that most of Srila Prabhupada's disciples feel the same way you do. That is the reason why 95% of them left Iskcon. Sure, many of us had material desires to fulfill also. But if Iskcon had been led by sadhus rather than by politicians (and in some cases perverts and criminals), then most of us would have been quite content to work out our personal problems within the context of a loving, spiritual family. It was not meant to be.
I wish you well on your zigzag journey back to Godhead. It can be very lonely on your own. I hope you find inspiration and friends along the way. Please try to be tolerant of others and even of your own karma in your pursuit of the ultimate goal of life, Krishna bhakti, Krishna prema.

Please read my new essay titled "Is ISKCON a cult?...

2009-04-23T01:29:00.000-05:00

Please read my new essay titled "Is ISKCON a cult?" at http://harekrishnadiary.blogspot.com/

das,
Caitanya dasa

Mata Ana, thank you for your comment and i look fo...

2009-04-22T16:48:00.000-05:00

Mata Ana,
thank you for your comment and i look forward to reading your stuff on your blog. Jai Prabhupada!

Babhru, thanks for your comments that you have mad...

2009-04-22T16:47:00.000-05:00

Babhru,
thanks for your comments that you have made on several posts of mine. i will navigate to your blog: http://audaryabhavan.blogspot.com/ and read it. I already read your piece of Srila Prabhupada's siddha deha/swarup and appreciated it.
All the best to you on the zigzag road.

re: Siddhartha, have you seen "Little Buddha", Kea...

2009-04-22T15:36:00.000-05:00

re: Siddhartha, have you seen "Little Buddha", Keanu Reeves does a fairly good job of recreating the story of Siddhartha's life. It is so symbolic of our Society's blindness to Birth, Death, Disease, and Old Age which were the 4 events that Siddhartha's father tried to prevent him from seeing as per the Astrological prediction that if He saw these He take to a renounced life.

You wrote, "Getting out of the material world is t...

2009-04-22T15:26:00.000-05:00

You wrote,
"Getting out of the material world is the most zigzag of roads. It requires constant attention and adjustment, causeless divine mercy, conscious suffering, sukriti (spiritual good fortune), child-like inquisitiveness, patience, obedience to truths that are often invisible, rules that are at times apparently counter-intuitive, and goals that are always beyond our tiny efforts. This road also demands rejection of group-think, personal sacrifice, tolerance of one's karma and the karma of one's friends, the ability to pick oneself up after countless stumbling, and many other qualities.

Anyone who thinks it's easy to drive down this road and become liberated will soon learn otherwise. Anyone who thinks that blind faith to a belief system or to an institution will suffice is in for a big surprise. Anyone who abuses vaisnavas or disturbs others on the road will need to remain in the material world to become aware of their mistakes and atone for them."

Ditto that. I'll miss your insights, your griping, and all the rest. Stay well. Aloha.

Thanks, Billy. We can stay in contact via email. A...

2009-04-22T14:54:00.000-05:00

Thanks, Billy. We can stay in contact via email.
All the best to you and family. A big "Khub Bhalo, Haribol" to your little son from Bangladesh.

Well I'll miss your blog Jauvana. We walk in diffe...

2009-04-22T11:24:00.000-05:00

Well I'll miss your blog Jauvana. We walk in different traditions, yet I relate to your journey and that of your Krishna Conscious brothers and sisters.

When we wake as spiritual children, the taste of God conciousness is profound and unforgettable. We get older, our perspective changes, we go through a lot of things. And forgetting sometimes how much we may have actually struggled back then, inevitably wish for those transcendent moments of beginning again, with all of it's promise.

And I think that's where the next generation comes in. Where we had to be captured by the light, perhaps they *are* the light - or at least closer to it. I think there is more to spiritual point of having children then merely raising them to 21 and retiring to live in a forest. Eventually children are the extension of our own journey, and we need each other to make our persons complete and whole.

At least, that's how I have been seeing it lately.

All The Best

Billy

Got the point. Probably this is the time for since...

2009-04-19T10:23:00.000-05:00

Got the point. Probably this is the time for sincere and heartfelt prayers. More than ever before.

Atma V, Add 5 cups of milk, 1 cup of rice, half a ...

2009-04-19T09:26:00.000-05:00

Atma V,
Add 5 cups of milk, 1 cup of rice, half a cup of sugar and a pinch of saffron. Seriously, if i knew the recipe i would be creating good association today. I don't know it, i just know we gotta get it. My meaning is that if we can't join it, we need to make it. In other words, find like minded company somehow. That could be just 1 or 2 other souls....even a couple of bonzai trees.

Not a comment, but a question. ..."If you cannot f...

2009-04-19T07:09:00.000-05:00

Not a comment, but a question.
..."If you cannot find it, you need to create it."...
This is where I am totally lost. How to create good association?
Atma

Nicely said. I especially appreciate the conclusio...

2009-04-18T17:32:00.000-05:00

Nicely said. I especially appreciate the conclusion. Good sense from a good soul. Thanks.

I remember the depression I felt when I left ISKCO...

2009-04-17T21:50:00.000-05:00

I remember the depression I felt when I left ISKCON and my service in the mid '80s. It was awful sometimes, even though I never stopped chanting my rounds or following the "principles," which I guess had all sort of become second nature ny then. When I talked to a counselor, I realized it was just as you said, a real loss, such as a divorce or death.

There's a phrase in Margaret Atwood's novel, The Handmaid's Tale: "nolite te bastardes carborundorum." It's a joke Latin phrase that's supposed to mean "Don't let the bastards grind you down." I think that's the trick for all of us. The spirit that inspired us is still there, and I believe it can be revived. The key for some may be to see if we can find others with whom we can work to do something, however modest, that helps fulfill at least some of the seven purposes for which Srila Prabhupada said he founded ISKCON. I can imagine we won't all be lucky enough to find that kind of company. You've been around much more than I, so you may know better than I how futile that suggestion may seem. But we can't let 'em grind us down.

Madhava ghosh, Thanks for your comments. You made ...

2009-04-17T12:00:00.000-05:00

Madhava ghosh,
Thanks for your comments. You made some good points especially in your second pass. But let me clear up some things. I certainly don't need any "hand holding." I'm probably old enough to be your father, and i went thru my own mid=life crisis 15 years ago. I know what that is and what i wrote about in this post has nothing to do with losing one's youth.
Your point of forgiveness is good, but again my post was not assailing any individual or even Iskcon for its faults. It was talking about the grief that one experiences when he loses something dear to himself. Iskcon was dear to Srila Prabhupada's disciples because it was dear to Prabhupada. That is the reason we joined. Not to become cult members or corporate managers or gurus. But to get closer to the pure devotee and thru him to Krishna. That is not some mundane opportunity like making a lot of money or becoming famous. It is something extraordinary and it was lost. Yes, now we need to move on and all is not lost because we have our experiences and our knowledge. But i wanted to express the emotional price of that loss in this post.

Sorry if my word choice seems trivializing but tha...

2009-04-17T07:21:00.000-05:00

Sorry if my word choice seems trivializing but that was not my intent. I thought I was doing a little hand holding, didn't realize I stepped into the ISKCON is the source of all my problems camp.

The philosophy is Krishna consciousness not ISKCON consciousness and I personally long ago stopped letting ISKCON have any power over me in regards to my personal happiness even though I also could come up with a laundry list of complaints.

I don't use the ghost of ISKCON past as a block. Ultimately KC is a personal choice not dependent on external forces.

The point I was making is that as individuals we go through various stages of life. The idea that once we become devotees somehow we are exempted from them is an illusion, IMHO.

Transcending is not exemption, it is not negating experiences, it is living through them with higher knowledge.

Karma tells us that with or without ever meeting ISKCON we would have had the same happiness and distress, there just would have been a different organization to deal with.

So midlife crisis is a real part of the human experience and that sense of disappointment is a real issue to deal with. Sometimes recognizing that can be of some comfort, that I am not the only one going through this.

The way to move beyond is to let go of the past and move forward in a positive direction. That requires forgiveness.

Forgiveness is NOT about letting transgressors off the hook. It is about stopping them having influence in your own internal life.

One definition of forgiveness is to give up all hope for a better past. That is a personal choice and option.

Again, sorry if I didn't spell all that out.

Madhava Ghosh's comment is indeed superficial. Wha...

2009-04-16T12:29:00.000-05:00

Madhava Ghosh's comment is indeed superficial. What a shame that someone blessed with the name of a nitya-siddha should display such flippancy. Jauvana made some clear points and his honest baring of the heart deserves better. Not the least because many, many of us who were there during the zonal travesty and lies, during the cynical hijacking of Prabhupada's legacy, absorbed a level of abuse that years of inner pain have not eradicated. The humpity-dumpity zonal "acaryas" broke a thousand hearts and all the GBC's horses and all the GBC's men could not put them back together again. (with apologies to Lewis Carroll).

I'm sorry to see Madhava Gosh trivialize this. I ...

2009-04-16T10:34:00.000-05:00

I'm sorry to see Madhava Gosh trivialize this. I have similar feelings but I'm only 37, too young for a midlife crisis IMHO. Moreover, I started feeling depressed fairly quickly after I began to get involved with ISKCON.

I moved to New Vrindavana in 1997, imagining it to be a "Hare Krishna Farm Community," based on my reading of Srila Prabhupada's books. I had no idea of the horrendous scandals until I got there. I think it may have been the same day Tapa Punja was released from prison for his involvement in Sulocana's murder. I assumed devotees lived there to farm together while cultivating Krishna consciousness. I wanted to do that. Instead the Temple President suggested I go work in a factory making potpourri pies to sell in malls.

At least you got to experience the real thing. I wish we could ressurrect the ghost.

Thank you for your writing.

Hare Krishna.

Keep chanting and serving Lord Chaitanya. If you c...

2009-04-16T10:31:00.000-05:00

Keep chanting and serving Lord Chaitanya. If you come to Canada get in touch.

Visvakarma

Sounds like a mid life crisis. Even men who didn't...

2009-04-16T06:14:00.000-05:00

Sounds like a mid life crisis. Even men who didn't join ISKCON go through the same thing.

While it is disappointing ISKCON wasn't perfect, this is a common experience even for those in mainstream America, that sense that something went wrong, the idealism of youth betrayed.

True, but we if we are honest, we are somewhat cul...

2009-04-11T00:37:00.000-05:00

True, but we if we are honest, we are somewhat culpable for being the china in the china shop. I know i went along with it for a few years. If enough of us back then had been more prescient and insightful about the character of those characters, we would have revolted, and perhaps history could have been changed. But now the milk has spilled, and there is no returning back. This is Krishna's plan. We can record it as history that we witnessed but also detach ourselves so we can create our own reality. Let's pray to make the best use of a bad bargain. Hey, we survived! Now, let's move on.

Hrdayananda and his ten buddys aided and abetted b...

2009-04-10T19:38:00.000-05:00

Hrdayananda and his ten buddys aided and abetted by a whole slew of wanabees, all on and off the GBC / BBT broke more devotees than a parade of bulls in a china shop. Shame on them, shame, shame, shame.

Great writing, as usual. Hare Krishna.

2009-04-10T09:39:00.000-05:00

Great writing, as usual. Hare Krishna.

I agree that you have an argument concerning the e...

2009-04-08T11:35:00.000-05:00

I agree that you have an argument concerning the editing of the books, but I also think there is a counter argument that is well motivated and thus far I have sided with it. I see no point in discussing this at length here. I merely wanted to address the charge against one party's motivation.

Perhaps the argument in favor of editing has been used partly as an excuse not to write books on the part of devotees who are not really qualified to do so anyway, books that address issues that need to be addressed, issues in Prabhupada's books, contemporary issues, etc. Prabhupada's books are great in their won right, but new books are also needed.

Anyway there is plenty of confusion out there. No doubt about that. Sorry for the confusion :) and thanks for the compliment! Blogon.

Yes, my dear godbrother, you of the perfect logic....

2009-04-08T10:32:00.000-05:00

Yes, my dear godbrother, you of the perfect logic. Please start your own blog. Send me a link when you do and i will read it. In the meantime, haribol. p.s. and you never addressed my most basic point in this entire "debate": that Srila Prabhupada, requested that no more changes be made to his books. I don't have the exact quote on his books, but i have heard him say that we westerners like to change everything constantly. With the books, he is both the author and our guru. What rationalization can be made to justify overturning that? Even mundane authors' books remain untouched by editors after their death.

What is my point? You have stated that those who s...

2009-04-08T09:05:00.000-05:00

What is my point? You have stated that those who see fit to edit Prabhupada's books after his departure do so out of nothing more than false ego. As I said, it is one thing to disagree with their opinion and quite another to question their motive.

I am no fan of Jayadvaita Swami, but I agree with his position on the editing. So in effect you have said that persons like myself take such a stand based on our egos. I think that you assume far more here than that which is within your capacity to know. No straw man argument here.

Secondly you say that Prabhupada is a literary genius in his use of the English language. I disagree and I have pointed out why I do. I have explained what a literary genius is in order to underscore my point. No straw man argument here either. So now you have given your own definition of what you meant by literary genius to wiggle out of a loosing argument. Why not just admit it instead of making the straw man argument that I am making straw man arguments?

The discussion has continued only because you pushed the point and took offense, telling me I was disrespectful to Prabhupada, quoting his unedited Bhagavatam translations as if to say the were examples of literary genius, etc. I found the ideas that I was disrespectful to Prabhupada and that Prabhupada's translations were fine without editing to be absurd and called you on it.

I also find that (more or less) pushing the offense button as you have with your warnings to be a form of fear mongering. Let's be honest here. I have said nothing offensive about Srila Prabhupada, because as you have admitted finally, he is not a literary genius in the English language. So we agree. No offense here. But still you go on to characterize me as offensive with this statement, "I don't like censorship but i prefer it to hearing your so-called rational poison. Write your own blog if you wish to broadcast your prejudices about my spiritual master."

Your spiritual master is also my spiritual master and I have ben serving him for 39 years. Rational poison? I think it is important to think rationally as well as spiritually about our guru. After all, religion without philosophy is merely sentiment (By the way Prabhupada's quote on this comes from Tagore). So it is important to use our heads and in fact that is what you are trying to do on this blog. I just think you have a blind spot on this issue.

So I have also stated that you display somewhat of a fundamentalist disposition with regard to your position on Prabhupada's books. I am just waiting for someone to post about the 10,000 years law books conception. But that may be a stretch for you and I certainly hope so.

I also pointed out how you misunderstood how Prabhupda was use of the word atonement in 6.1.11. No straw me here either and I think this was an important point to bring out.

Anyway, I will go away if that is what you want. But I was looking for rational spiritual discussion. Perhaps I could have made that more clear to begin with.